tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2058188035264594577.post8639980079763392634..comments2023-09-29T05:16:37.208-04:00Comments on PragmaticIdealists: Dissent is *Still* Patrioticmike3550http://www.blogger.com/profile/09621465191508532187noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2058188035264594577.post-86985102713235648762009-08-11T17:11:07.766-04:002009-08-11T17:11:07.766-04:00"Thinking that we can adopt their tactics wit..."Thinking that we can adopt their tactics without adopting their mentality is what leads us down the road to leftist totalitarianism."<br /><br />Dave, this is a very good point and I think that it is wise to heed this advice. On the other hand, I, like Jay, would really love to see the hypocrisy of right-wingers pointed out. I would especially love to hear from those who publicly declared the LIOLI attitude under Bush just to see what mental acrobatics they could come up with. <br /><br />But, on more careful analysis, doing something simply out of vengeance and to provoke a reaction is not the best reason to do something, either tactically or morally.mike3550https://www.blogger.com/profile/09621465191508532187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2058188035264594577.post-87173265921536986572009-08-11T12:34:14.919-04:002009-08-11T12:34:14.919-04:00I agree with Dave. I don’t like the idea of adopt...I agree with Dave. I don’t like the idea of adopting a “love it or leave it” attitude. I was trying to point out that it’s only the conservatives who take this stance and that they’ve been getting away with it. I think that someone should point out to them that if dissent is unpatriotic, it’s unpatriotic . . . even when the Democrats are in power. But the wrapped-in-the-flag conservatives don’t see it that way. They think that the Right is patriotic whether they are in power or dissenting, and that the Left is unpatriotic even when the Left <i>is</i> the government. So even though I don’t think the left should really adopt the LIOLI attitude, I do think that someone should say it to the wingnut dissenters just to see how they react.Jay Livingstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06652075579940313964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2058188035264594577.post-84461514531216114762009-08-11T12:20:46.236-04:002009-08-11T12:20:46.236-04:00Jay and Mike, if I may dissent...I think it would ...Jay and Mike, if I may dissent...I think it would be horrible if we on the left adopted the "America, love it or leave it" stance, even just for fun. What I love about America is that we all have the right to stand up to our government. We all have the right to speak out. The reason the Bush admin were fascist thugs was because they blocked or arrested dissenters. They took away our right to be American. Thinking that we can adopt their tactics without adopting their mentality is what leads us down the road to leftist totalitarianism.<br /><br />The way I see it, if my Congressman wants to hold a two hour meeting to "hear from the citizens," I don't see why that discourse has to be civil and polite. At it's best, it's just the Congressman rambling for an hour spewing talking points and then people getting up at the microphone for their two minute rant about whatever talking points their heard/read last. I mean, does anyone expect an original thought to be expressed or a mind to be changed at these things?dave3544https://www.blogger.com/profile/05683213316867939951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2058188035264594577.post-69017013721807749702009-08-11T11:41:51.112-04:002009-08-11T11:41:51.112-04:00Jay -- Thank you for posting this comment. I thin...Jay -- Thank you for posting this comment. I think, re-reading my post, I wasn't exactly saying what it is that I wanted to say and I think that I can clarify a little bit here. <br /><br />Taking your second point first, I was severely distressed and angered by the Bush Administration and their stool pigeons saying that I wasn't patriotic because I didn't support a war of choice or didn't think that torture was acceptable on any terms. Because I felt so strongly about that, I feel that it is wrong for any government official -- whether I agree with them or not -- to do the same. That is why I am arguing that it is wrong that Pelosi, Hoyer, and Baird do the same. That said, if Move-On wants to advocate for lefties to start plastering their cars with "love it or leave it" signs, I would be all for it. But, for government officials to question the patriotism of those who disagree crosses a boundary that I think should not be crossed. <br /><br />On the first point, I think that I slightly mis-stated my position and you are correct. I would hazard to guess that those who are protesting at town halls were fine doing whatever the government said. I was thinking more of those who are more passively participating in this debate, some of whom I've had conversations with. All had REAL problems with the Bush Administration, but many also have a real suspicion of government intervention. I disagree with them, but I can see that there are things that the government has done that have not had the desired effects and simply denying this or lumping them in with the protesters is problematic. But, that gets to the real point of my post, which is that we (i.e., proponents of reform) need to organize those people because right now the people having conversations with this group of people are the protesters and active organizers on the right opposing this.mike3550https://www.blogger.com/profile/09621465191508532187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2058188035264594577.post-90155793312727997442009-08-11T10:29:12.361-04:002009-08-11T10:29:12.361-04:00"is likely a fear and mistrust of the governm..."is likely a fear and mistrust of the government that has a real basis in reality." These same protesters -- what did they do from Jan 2001 to Jan 2009, when the White House was greatly expanding its powers? They were extremely trustful. <br /><br />"not to disparage and insult those who are protesting, to question their patriotism " Why is it that only the right gets to question the patriotism of those who dissent from government policy? When the Obama health plan is finally enacted (in whatever dismembered form), if wing nuts are still protesting, why can't the lefties haul out the old right wing placards that say "America -- love it or leave it"?Jay Livingstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06652075579940313964noreply@blogger.com